dante lopez Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 hi, so I got so impress whit natasha's riusha netsuke that I want to gave a try but I don't know any of it, can any one give some gide in this, this is a personal challenge because I want to make it on jade ,I all ready cut the stone is semi transparent ,light green like water melon look a like ,please and bee very ,very ,very hard and meticulousthe piece is 2"x 3/4 1-what is the dimension for this 2-the thickness 3-it have to bee hallow or solid ? 4-where the holes have to bee 5-what seize differences they have in the holes 6-where they have to bee place ,in the meddle or ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Hi Dante.. I will post some drawings later that should answer all your questions. I think its an exciting project though.. I've never seen a ryusa style netsuke made out of Jade. Could look very good. Till later.. just need to carve for a few hours. Regards Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante lopez Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 thanks ,I really really appreciate,because this a personal challenge ,to tests the limits to the etch, and see what happens thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 OK.. First thing to know is that that there really are no set rules regarding Ryusa netsuke.. the name simply is derived from the carver called Ryusa who popularized this style of netsuke, although there are some guidelines if you wish it to be regarded as a fully functional netsuke. There are a number of ways to make the himotoshi.. but a single hole as in this picture was very common and probably suit your purposes.. Once the cords have entered the hollow internal area there are a number of ways it could be tied off.. see Pic below I hope this helps Regards Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ford Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 its just a style made famous by a carver called Ryusa ...I didn't know that , thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasha Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Hi Dante! What's a crazy idea to carve Ryusa netsuke from JADE!!!! The sizes are 2 inches across, the thickness is 1/2 inch (my usual sizes). Tomorrow I'll send to You some photos of theprocess of carving! My advice, use jade for Manju netsuke or something else, don't use for Ryusa! Ryusa netsuke has to be very easy for not to break a lacquered Inro! Jade is too heavy for it and too solid for carving detils inside with good quality! Ryusa takes very much time, if to add jade instead mammoth,You'll spend too much time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 The sizes are 2 inches across, the thickness is 1/2 inch (my usual sizes). With all due respect Natasha.. there is no set size for a Ryusa netsuke.. I have seen 19th Cen Ryusa style netsuke from as small as 1.3 inch in dia.. some that arn't circular and some that are much thicker than 1/2.. I've even seen one that was almost a sphere... hell I've even seen a ojime carved in this style! Also.. I don't quite understand your logic concerning the use of Jade.. Sure it might be on the heavy side but size and thickness could compensate.. I also don't understand what you mean by "very easy for not to break a lacquered Inro" ?? ... quite apart from how this might happen .. ?? .. many other items beside lacquered inro are hung from the obi using netsuke. All that aside.. one of the reasons why Ryusa became popular was that skill in carving inside the hollow was greatly admired.. the reason why a lot of contemporary collectors don't admire Ryusa as much is that they appreciate that with modern power tools carving inside is a relatively easy task. To make such a piece out of jade however will re-introduce a degree of difficulty and therefore I think this is an exciting challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante lopez Posted November 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 hi natasha thanks for the replay ,that's the seize that I am using ,I understand your concern about jade ,but the one that I carve is guatemalan jade ,usually jade is harder then steel by consequent is very resistant ,but the one from guatemala is even harder that's what I am carving this from,I have cut slabs as thick as .05 mm and drop in the ground to see what it can handel so far for resistance ,after seen the ones you have don ,the only think that comes to my head is that if there where one made in jade at that thickness the transparency will be lovely and graceful and a very very high challenge that's the reason for this project ,from time to time I have to jump to look for something to put me to the test as a personal challenge,and having the way to get the opinion from people like your self ,clive ,oleg ,janelle ,and many others ,I think a can get a very honest opinion and getting all of yours perspective help to see things I probably have not seen and please bee very very strict and direct whit your opinion like if you where a japanese collector ( the most piki one ,that's the only way to grow)I wont feel offended by the contrary that's what I am looking for ,I understand the time concern ,but this piece I don't care if I sale or not is a challenge ,for the inside details I am making some special tool for the inside ,I post as it goes so can have yours opinions of any thing you want to comment if you see a mistake feel free to let me know,( I think maybe one year to finish this project ??hope not)so far the stone is been rounded to the shape I want ( I could use a drill to get the round piece but I cut all by hand to get the right circle so the test stars from there ). Clive thanks very very mooch for all yours advices and help ,in this project I feel very excited for this ,(now, that you set that you have not seen one like this get even vetter mmmmmm)and yes every thing in this piece is about difficulty ,now I am in the prose's to clean all the rough marks from the grinding stone from the piece to have a smooth surface , next's will be where to place the hole. Ok now I need to know the precise diameter of the himotoshi that's the first thing I am going to do, then hallow the inside that the easy part the hard part is to keep a good thickness even for the carving , do you recommend to make only hallow or to put that inside ook to put the cord. thanks very mooch for your kind advices and time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Ok now I need to know the precise diameter of the himotoshi that's the first thing I am going to do, then hallow the inside that the easy part the hard part is to keep a good thickness even for the carving , do you recommend to make only hallow or to put that inside ook to put the cord.thanks very mooch for your kind advices and time If your piece is going to be 50mm accross I'd imagine a hole of 6mm would suit... although if you really want my recommendation I'd make the piece small.. about 42mm, because of the weight factor.. then have a hole about 5mm. As for the inside.. I can't advise, thats down to you... it depends on your overall design.. no point puting to flap inside if you can't get to it to push cords through. If I was you before I start this project I would do some research.. google ryusa.. look in books.. speak to dealers.. look at as many as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante lopez Posted November 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 ok ,thanks for the advice , I don't know any one that is a dealer in can cun but for sure check in google ,for the standers ,I think is going to be very light maybe 15,0r 20 grms ( I think is ligth jaja) ,if you think that 15 o 20 grms is heavy then I cut small , but I like the seize hope to heard your ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasha Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 There is the process of carving and some of my tools! The size of this Ryusa is 2 inches across, the thickness is 1/2 inch, mammoth tusk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasha Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 After polishing and inlays..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasha Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Colored with Urushi lacquers, gold, koban and silver powders, walnut ink, Yashabushi, burning needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Dear Natasha, Thats a lovely piece of work.. beautifully carved and coloured... but I must tell you this.. even if it risks upsetting you, because this thread is about advising Dante on the engineering and design of Ryusa netsuke. Your piece and some of the others.. notably the 7 wonders simply cannot work as functional netsuke. PLEASE don't get me wrong.. the quality of your carving is excellent.. but if a cord was pushed through this piece and worn off an obi it would probably break within hours... there simply is no strength in the engineering of your design. Please don't get me wrong.. I too push the limits of what is functional and practical.. sometimes consciously and deliberately making my work too delicate for functional use... but that was a conscious choice.. I wouldn't hold up such pieces as models of good functional netsuke design... so sometimes I simply just don't call them netsuke. A piece of advice I was given many years ago by Masatoshi.. First rule of himotoshi and netsuke design.. tie your netsuke on cord and holding about one foot of cord swing netsuke fast in circular motion.. this will adequately test the strength of the himotoshi design.... if done so.. I think your piece will shatter into a dozen pieces. I also took the liberty of asking for the opinion of a few leading experienced dealers and collectors of netsuke.. they all agreed. I really do hope this post does not upset you Natasha.. I read on another forum that you actually hadn't seen many Ryusa netsuke so perhaps simply don't know any better.. but its one thing to make your own pieces how you like.. but another to advise others... and it therefore would be wrong of me not to tell it straight. Kindest regards Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasha Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Clive, I know what the engineering is. If You look at at the loop for cord, You'll see that this loop (as the others) was carved on the thick place. The Ryusa won't be broken, I've tested! I've seen a sawed ancient Ryusa netsuke, You'll be astonished, the thickness of that Ryusa is the same, as mine! I always remember that any netsuke has to be functional, can be weared! Yes, they look very thin and fine, but they are always enough strong! My tools, pressing needle, polishing process didn't break anything! I've seen a lot of Ryusa style netsuke, even inside, but I've never holded a Ryusa netske in my hand done by another carver, just mine! So, dear Clive, don't worry about the engineering of my design, everything is all right!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Natasha.. its not the loop inside that takes your cord knot that worries me.. its the strength of the design around where the cord enters the netsuke.. see pic.. your entire engineering strength is dependent on the areas marked in red being strong enough to support the rest of the design... this is not about personal opinion but one based on simple enigineering principles.. the inherint strength of the material.. of pressure points and stresses in the design, all of which can be calculated quite accurately. What my dear Natasha would happen if you pulled the cord to the side?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasha Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Hm, it seems to me You don't know what Ryusa style netsuke is! This style was spesially created by Ryusa-san, a carver, he made this very easy kind of netsuke, because when netsuke dropped on the Inro, the weight of netsuke was too heavy and damaged the beautiful lacquered surface of Inro. If You know, there are a lot of finest, amazing lacquered Inro which are VERY EXPENSIVE! Better to break a netsuke than such Inro! So, Ryusa style netsuke is Kamikadze in the world of netsuke, the main target - to save Inro! If You search in the Internet "Ryusa netsuke", You'll find a lot of finest Ryusa, probably more finest than mine! There is a very wonderful piece! Isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Oh dear.. I'm sorry Natasha but can you please provide some evidence of my representing this piece of work as a ryusa netsuke.. this piece of work by me was sold through Mr Spindel many years ago as an okimono!!! If Mr Kinsey the owner chooses to regard it as a functional netsuke that entirely his concern.. not mine. FWIW..I was later convinced by him (he is afterall a recognised athority on these matters) that it could actually function as a netsuke, but I've always had my doubts regarding its strength in that capacity. Can you also provide some evidence to support your notions on possible damage to expensive info.. ??? Please also bear in mind the context of this discussion.. we are replying to Dante's requests for information on proper Ryusa design. My critique of your piece must seen in that context.. What you do with your own work is entirely your concern.. but it can't be right to present examples of work that cannot function as netsuke as that might seriously mislead Dante. OH and Janel... Please consider THAT as a response to your pm to me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Bonham Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Hi, I was wondering what the largest size that a Ryusa netsuke could be created and still be a netsuke? Dick Visit My Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasha Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Clive, on the revers side all bamboos work together, not one. Are You going to wear an ax? I carved Ryusa for Inro! The second moment, the dress from Christian Dior is not for every day, jeans is for every day! If You want to wear something, buy a cheap trinket in the nearest shop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Bizarre! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I am growing very uncomfortable with the direction this thread is going in. The original intention for this topic was to learn more about ryusa netsuke, and how such a format might be translated by using jade as a material. Among the contributions, points have been made about what may or may not be well suited use of design of this particular format, a netsuke carved with open spaces or piercings with hollow space inside. Other things are happening here, and that makes me very uncomfortable. The intention of this forum is for friendly discussion and exchange of information. Please pull back and discuss the attributes of ryusa netsuke in regards to Dante's original line of information seeking. If the main parties must continue, please do so privately between yourselves. Janel Forum owner and administrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Wu Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 marvelous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Janel.. just how are we supposed to discuss the original question in a meaningful manner if we cannot challenge contributions?.. Just how is Dante or anybody else supposed to filter the correct advice from the not so good?? Whats the point in Natasha and I discussing this in private.. how does that help Dante??? I understand your over-riding desire for things to always remain friendly.. but surely allowing bad advice to be given to unsuspecting beginners can't be considered that friendly either. Surely its entirely up to Natasha if she wants to put up her pieces for scrutiny in the context of this discussion.. "if individuals have aspects they'd rather not air in public they shouldn't get involved in public debates." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante lopez Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 hhooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! ,I appreciate very mooch all the advices but my intension is not to put any one mad or jealous ,I think that you two are spectacular carvers and I can learn tooooooo mooch from the two of you I FEEL HONORED THAT YOU TWO TAKE THE TIME TO GIVE YOUR OPINION, whit the different points of view, I check in the net for ryusa and now I star to understand in a very primitive perspective that this as to many thing involve concept ,story ,functionality,elaboration ,and many other things ,and in a way the beauty of all this contemporary netsuke carvers is to bring new fresh air ,whit they own style ,I am a ware that some pieces are so intricate that won't bee use avery day some others can bee used daily,and I think that's the middle point from this perspective that bout of you are having resistance of the piece vs. fine detail , all the things that bout of you are doing is helping me allot but please do not hurt any ones feelings , hope you don't get this in the rung way but ,one of teachers of acupuncture toll me if you going to say some thing that hurt better keep for your self ,I understand that all of you have very different temperament intense like natasha clearly show in her work , or the master precision of the cut that you do your pieces are a picture of your self and that why your opinion is very important for me ,whit this a say I hope not to make any one uncomfortable or offended ,I try to live like confucius set ,in the middle keep the balance harmony,I will love to have you two as my gide in this project,but bee kind to one and other ,please critics are good I understand that .LOVE TO YOU ALL,THANKS(excuse my ingles) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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