help for riusha netski

[Guest Clive]

[polymita]

Dear friends:

 

Why modern or contemporary Netsukes must be always related to japanese culture or Flora and Fauna? I accept that certain people wants to be as traditional as they can, but I preffer freshly new images using that older conceptual meanings and shapes.

 

In my brief introduction to a post related to the important of visual data I explain clearly that the artist must research intensively about the subject he wants to carve...as an artist we have the posibility to change the figurative reality into a fantastical thing (watch the fantastic epic fantasy pieces of Natasha), but when you need to carve something real you must need to spend a long time researching and drawing (watch the frogs made by Janel Jacobson)...my advice to Dante it´s to research deeply and don´t expect that someone find their own solutions like the ecosystem or vegetation type. Always there´s even some scientific or specialist that offers an objective point of view. And careful with the vegetation type or subtract where you put the animal, it most be the real ecosystem and forest (in the case you use a japanese endemic frog of course). Well at the end in miniature sculpture a frog will lokks like a frog and the bambu maybe looks similar (there are many different types of bambu plants also). The best endemic species I saw from Japan, at least in invertebrates, are from the tiny islands that surround the main island...try to seek images from the frogs of the forests of that tiny island and maybe something very cool appears.

 

Anyhow except for a ceremonial use I don´t think someone wear a kimono with a Netsuke everyday or today, maybe very few persons but that´s all. It´s completely different when we talk about another utilitary objects as smoking pipes that until today are used by thousands of people.Yes the definition of form in many utilitary objects it´s the function, but every daily utilitary piece of art born and die someday guys,...even sometimes the pieces made in harder and resistence materials. Netsukes of today are more art than a necessary utilitary pieces please...even as professor Rhubard said: ¨if a carving is designed as a netsuke but not worn as a netsuke, is it still a netsuke?¨ and Yes many contemporary ryusa or netsuke weren´t enough strong to resist a daily use in ancient Japan, so in utilitary terms there are not good Netsukes...the iron: the artist sells this fragile netsukes and Ryusa in better prices than the prices obtained by old japanese netsukeshi masters in XVIII-XIX Centuries!!!

 

Discuss the validity of netsuke or a Ryusa it was very interesting to me here on this post,very interesting, and I´m agree that people argue intense about it because some of us learned from his sentences as teachings. The customers thoughts and statements are also very interesting here because they offer another point of view of the Netsuke bussiness in this times,...but sometimes I saw, just sometimes guys, that certain words used showed skills elitism and a subtle intention to disguise the true meaning to create Art.

 

Dear fellows I love to read and increase my culture everyday, I consider myself an student everyday, but when we start to force others to follow rules and not to break them If they can then we are far away from the true meaning of beign an artist. Yes some conceptual framed statements are created through ancient times to certain artistic expressions Ok!!!, but even some of that framed visions related to utilitary objects evolved from one another, and many times some artists forced a previous framed concept into another step forward. Materials always were related in the cultures to historical-religious-social-adquisitive-significance meanings.... and Dante´s jade ryusa in this moments is valid in my opinion, it doesn´t matter the weight or material used, ryusas are not selled this days for its utilitary use, just as pieces of Art Ok.

 

When you study some ¨primitive¨cultures as the japanese Jomon,ecuadorian Valdivia or east Europe neolitic cultures between 6000-3500 A.C, you see many similarities in the shapes, motivs and even symbologies...but every of this cultures develop their own framed sculpture concepts and their artist breaks the frame and evolved inside the main ideology that belongs to this very old cultures. And I can put many other examples about sculpture and evolving concepts through the history of Art.

 

As Natasha sentence here is a question of taste and in this globalized planet there are enough space for every creations we made and every piece to sell someday find it buyer. Also as the smart Clive said handle critics is a delicate subject to most of the skillful and suscessfull contemporary western artists and in my humble opinion both, Natasha and Clive are amazing artists that wants to help...but they are humans as all of us (I don´t think we have an alien from another planet here) and they had emotions and their own way to express with passion their knowledge or feelings.

 

I felt glad to get into this post, and is one of the bests posts I ever read in this place...believe me I read many.

 

Please don´t misunderstood my words because my english is too bad. Good luck and Health to everyone here in this Forum...Sincerely yours,...ADRIÁN

[polymita]

Dear friends:

 

Why modern or contemporary Netsukes must be always related to japanese culture or Flora and Fauna? I accept that certain people wants to be as traditional as they can, but I preffer freshly new images using that older conceptual meanings and shapes.

 

In my brief introduction to a post related to the important of visual data I explain clearly that the artist must research intensively about the subject he wants to carve...as an artist we have the posibility to change the figurative reality into a fantastical thing (watch the fantastic epic fantasy pieces of Natasha), but when you need to carve something real you must need to spend a long time researching and drawing (watch the frogs made by Janel Jacobson)...my advice to Dante it´s to research deeply and don´t expect that someone find their own solutions like the ecosystem or vegetation type. Always there´s even some scientific or specialist that offers an objective point of view. And careful with the vegetation type or subtract where you put the animal, it most be the real ecosystem and forest (in the case you use a japanese endemic frog of course). Well at the end in miniature sculpture a frog will lokks like a frog and the bambu maybe looks similar (there are many different types of bambu plants also). The best endemic species I saw from Japan, at least in invertebrates, are from the tiny islands that surround the main island...try to seek images from the frogs of the forests of that tiny island and maybe something very cool appears.

 

Anyhow except for a ceremonial use I don´t think someone wear a kimono with a Netsuke everyday or today, maybe very few persons but that´s all. It´s completely different when we talk about another utilitary objects as smoking pipes that until today are used by thousands of people.Yes the definition of form in many utilitary objects it´s the function, but every daily utilitary piece of art born and die someday guys,...even sometimes the pieces made in harder and resistence materials. Netsukes of today are more art than a necessary utilitary pieces please...even as professor Rhubard said: ¨if a carving is designed as a netsuke but not worn as a netsuke, is it still a netsuke?¨ and Yes many contemporary ryusa or netsuke weren´t enough strong to resist a daily use in ancient Japan, so in utilitary terms there are not good Netsukes...the iron: the artist sells this fragile netsukes and Ryusa in better prices than the prices obtained by old japanese netsukeshi masters in XVIII-XIX Centuries!!!

 

Discuss the validity of netsuke or a Ryusa it was very interesting to me here on this post,very interesting, and I´m agree that people argue intense about it because some of us learned from his sentences as teachings. The customers thoughts and statements are also very interesting here because they offer another point of view of the Netsuke bussiness in this times,...but sometimes I saw, just sometimes guys, that certain words used showed skills elitism and a subtle intention to disguise the true meaning to create Art.

 

Dear fellows I love to read and increase my culture everyday, I consider myself an student everyday, but when we start to force others to follow rules and not to break them If they can then we are far away from the true meaning of beign an artist. Yes some conceptual framed statements are created through ancient times to certain artistic expressions Ok!!!, but even some of that framed visions related to utilitary objects evolved from one another, and many times some artists forced a previous framed concept into another step forward. Materials always were related in the cultures to historical-religious-social-adquisitive-significance meanings.... and Dante´s jade ryusa in this moments is valid in my opinion, it doesn´t matter the weight or material used, ryusas are not selled this days for its utilitary use, just as pieces of Art Ok.

 

When you study some ¨primitive¨cultures as the japanese Jomon,ecuadorian Valdivia or east Europe neolitic cultures between 6000-3500 A.C, you see many similarities in the shapes, motivs and even symbologies...but every of this cultures develop their own framed sculpture concepts and their artist breaks the frame and evolved inside the main ideology that belongs to this very old cultures. And I can put many other examples about sculpture and evolving concepts through the history of Art.

 

As Natasha sentence here is a question of taste and in this globalized planet there are enough space for every creations we made and every piece to sell someday find it buyer. Also as the smart Clive said handle critics is a delicate subject to most of the skillful and suscessfull contemporary western artists and in my humble opinion both, Natasha and Clive are amazing artists that wants to help...but they are humans as all of us (I don´t think we have an alien from another planet here) and they had emotions and their own way to express with passion their knowledge or feelings.

 

I felt glad to get into this post, and is one of the bests posts I ever read in this place...believe me I read many.

 

Please don´t misunderstood my words because my english is too bad. Good luck and Health to everyone here in this Forum...Sincerely yours,...ADRIÁN

[Dick Bonham]

Hi Tom and Clive,

Thanks Tom. We must have posted our message's at the same time. I think I will make the piece 4" D. I have had some hollow pieces turned and they are very heavy. I think I will try raising the two pieces from sheet. I want the piece to come apart so there will be something inside and something outside.

Clive,

I found the discussion very interesting. I am sorry people became upset. However, now we can debate how many angel's will fit on the point of a pin.

Dick

[RUSS]

I’ve read the post that each member has placed on this thread, I then read them again and again…my heads still spinning………… I’m not at all surprised that Clive has called it a day….I think that members should read the posts very carefully before adding their comments, critiques and criticisms….

 

Clive stated that there are some guidelines to follow if you wish it to be regarded as a fully functional netsuke………and then tried to discuss these aspects. Some times there seems to be dozens of threads within the original thread….things then get lost and it can be difficult to get back on track…………….BUT….. one line sticks out for me that Dante posted…

 

Quote…………….please bee very very strict and direct ……………

 

I am probably one of only a few carvers that have direct contact with Clive at the moment living only a few miles away from his home. Once I have a basic idea I go over and discuss the different aspects of the design, just like Dante is doing. I know full well I’m going to get an honest critique straight to the point……Why have it any other way…..Clive’s not only honest to his own work but also to the knowledge he’s trying to pass on to us all here on this and other forums…I think we should look after this...............

 

Would like to say more but I’m off to sing a few songs…byeeeee

 

 

Russell...............

[dante lopez]

hi guys ,one question ,so the ryusa is carved in 4 directions but all ways empty inside like a cameo I carve the front wall and the back of it and the same for the back part,,so is like a egg carved from all directions ,or can it be the front carving crossing all the way from the front to the back interacting the two sides ,hope to heard from you guys

[tsterling]

OK, Here are the photos I promised.

 

Above are the three netsuke I mentioned: Left side - very large Tomochika Tigers, center - an antler ryusa netsuke of a snail, and right side - tiny child-size plum netsuke.

 

The center ryusa is sort of a "common" size for manju style netsuke (of course, we have to realize there really is no military standardizing manual for netsuke!). If you look for exceptions, as the tiger and plum netsuke here are, you will find them!

 

 

Here are some details of the ryusa - 1.75 inch diameter (4.5 cm) x 0.75 inch thick (1.9 cm). In the last image, you can see into the inside void of the ryusa quite well from the back side.

 

And Dick, have you considered a kagamibuta style netsuke for your medallic offering? Seems that might actually be a more appropriate way to go, since the lid of a kagamibuta is pretty much a medallion all by itself, and the hollow bowl leaves all sorts of crazy possibilities as long as you want to stretch the "netsuke" definition a little. I'm kind of thinking the pretty little hummingbird you showed several years back could be in the bowl, and a leafy twig hiding it all as the lid of the kagamibuta.

[Doug Sanders]

Dear friends:

 

Why modern or contemporary Netsukes must be always related to japanese culture or Flora and Fauna? I accept that certain people wants to be as traditional as they can, but I preffer freshly new images using that older conceptual meanings and shapes.

 

amen.

 

[Guest Clive]

Amen

 

[sergio]

Hi all. It's an interesting topic. Clive said that form and function are connected, i think it's right. If you carve something, and if you want to do a netsuke, you must respect some rules. If you just want to carve a miniature, do it but you don't call it "netsuke". If your netsuke can't support an inro, it's not a netsuke. About the client: If he is a good client, he takes what i do. If he commands, it's like an amputation of the creation. If the patrons of michel-Ange tell him: "do what you want", perhaps he carves other things. "Mecenes" must help the artists to do what want the artists, nothing else.

[Phil White]

Clive,

 

Like many great thinkers of the past and present, you are just misunderstood.

 

Jokes aside, I would hope that if I ever carve a netsuke, that you would feel free to offer the same thoughtful, direct and constructive criticism to me. It would be most welcome.

 

Phil

[Professor Rhubarb]

If I go to a salesroom to buy a car.. I don't expect to be shown a wheelbarrow simply because it could in some strange way be it could be considered a "car" of sorts.. Lets keep it real.. you can come up with all manner of strange convoluted semantic arguments that might have some minor merit.. but really.. why bother.. Why not simply call the it a work of art and find something better to do with your time. -Clive

 

Come on Clive... a wheelbarrow?? A car is to wheelbarrow as Natasha's netsuke is to...?

 

If I sell you a car, and you drive it three blocks and then it breaks, I'm sorry, but it's still a car. This is not a "strange, convoluted, semantic argument." You can't deny that a netsuke that can break easily is still a netsuke. And if it never breaks (because it is never/rarely worn)? To quote Natasha, "the dress from Christian Dior is not for every day, jeans is for every day!"

 

Netsukes of today are more art than a necessary utilitary piece. -Polymita

 

Indeed. I think this is what many people are overlooking. Artists should be allowed to embellish form where there is no function/utility.

 

Skill in carving inside the hollow was greatly admired. -Clive

 

OP, that is all you need to know. I think I hijacked your thread because I had some questions of my own and I was curious how far the definition of netsuke could go. I'm anxious to see what you produce, and good luck!

[Guest Ford]

I find this discussion as to what actually constitutes a true netsuke really interesting as there is in my mind a very similar issue with regard to tsuba.

 

Just because a palm sized plate of metal has a slot in it and it could be mounted on a long sword shaped bit of steel doesn't, to me, make it a tsuba. The label tsuba refers to artefacts that were made for a specific function, in a specific culture. It's primary raison d etre wasn't really functional at all, protecting hands was never a serious concern...and preventing the hand from slipping onto the blade is doubtful too . The reason for their popularity was almost certainly an aesthetic one. The tsuba displayed the spiritual concerns, refinement and culture of the wearer.

 

This is the question I ask myself daily; how do I remain true to the spirit of the tradition that gave rise to the tsuba while exploring my own interaction with the materials and processes employed by the artists of the past. I ask myself, if he'd lived another 100 years, "what would Natsuo do?" Unless I can address this issue convincingly I would just be making pastiche works, pale imitations of the past.

 

I honestly don't believe a contemporary artist can make a meaningful tsuba, or netsuke for that matter, until they have absorbed at least something of the guiding spirit and principles of the tradition out which they have grown. In my opinion, if there is no awareness (and it should be evident in the work) of these aspects then whatever is produced is neither a tsuba nor a netsuke, as the case may be. Simply adhering to external forms is to completely miss the heart of the matter, quite literally.

 

I'd also like to add at this point that subject matter isn't what makes something Japanese and simply using new and novel motifs, or materials, that's just tinkering with ingredients. Making real art has always been far more complex, focussed and personal.

 

Certainly, people can adopt Japanese labels to describe their creations, there's no copyright as far as I know , but the fact remains, wearing a pirate hat and swashbuckling boots doesn't make me a pirate...even less, Johnny Depp....much to my wife's dismay

 

Anyway, that's just my position on the matter...I daresay it'll be seen as extreme but I believe it reflects serious opinion in Japan also.

 

respectfully,

 

Ford ( light-foot) Hallam

[Dick Bonham]

Hi Ford,

Certainly, people can adopt Japanese labels to describe their creations, there's no copyright as far as I know , but the fact remains, wearing a pirate hat and swashbuckling boots doesn't make me a pirate...even less, Johnny Depp....much to my wife's dismay

Ahrrr.. Your wife is right Johnny Depp is the best costumed pirate to ever roam the celluloid seas.

Dick

 

Visit My Website

[Mark Strom]

Although I agree with the purist view put forth by Clive, Ford and others here, I do believe there is room for explorations outside of this view.

 

The one point that really sticks to me is the debate on function. From my experience, clients that purchase high end items expect high end design and craftsmanship. Whether it be a netsuke, a Dior dress or a Ferrari. Those clients expect the item to function for what is was designed for and to last. You cannot tell me if someone paid $10,000 for a dress wore it one time and the zipper or strap broke that they would buy another, or $250,000 for a Ferrari and the transmission failed the second time they tried to drive. They would be very upset because they paid for quality and function. Someone that pays for an item that serves a certain function should be able to expect that function to work and work well, especially if it has a high price tag attached to it.

 

A dress that can be worn on occasion but only carefully is still a dress, a car that can be driven but only at 30 mph is still a car.....both are what they are but still pretty much useless for the function they were designed for.

 

Netsuke, like so many other things, are supposed to function first with the artisitic side complimenting and enhancing that function.

 

What do you call something that is supposed to function but does so poorly but is still a work of art?

 

Mark

[Guest Ford]

What do you call something that is supposed to function but does so poorly but is still a work of art?

 

...not entirely successful?

[Karl Carvalho]

Is it safe?

[Ana Veler]

What do you call something that is supposed to function but does so poorly but is still a work of art?

 

 

A work of art.

 

 

Disclaimer: I am trying to understand how this may depend on whatever unspoken convention there might be for some type of object or another: say, Artisanal Margiella and blunt art knives may not be equally acceptable ? No idea about the second case! Other applied arts suggest yet different situations... Would rather contend that there is a certain universal pleasure to be had from putting rarefied things to use - you find the name for it - Clemens has it nailed there, but not named.

 

 

Obviously, hollowed jade carvings of unspeakable finesse have and are being produced without the Netsuke connection... It is exciting to see it done, Dante!

 

 

 

SOURCE

 

 

Another hollowed jade in the collection of the Asian Arts museum, San Fran: LINK comes with an explanation for its use. There are several such 'belt sets' in sister institutions. Clearly, the style of decoration once promoted by imperial insignia doesn't seem to need such utilitarian excuses, only rarefied craft and a market inspired by imperial fashions - then as now. The very frail ones - such as the one with the crane above - were suposed to be mounted in metal frames - an interesting parallel of the discussion of technical limits between form and function, already safely relegated to history.

 

Those are nephrite. I can't think of a comparable example in jadeite right now: THESE are obviously high relief only, but still...

 

I cannot know whether - given tools and the acceptance / availability of jadeite at the time - nephrite was crucial for a style with such extreme demands on the material's toughness. Those nephrite jade applications remind me of similar styles forced on Pala tourmaline [the pink from the onominous mine in San Diego county] in that particular Chinese taste. I can't imagine that tourmaline properties might recommend it for such torment - quite on the contrary. I am amazed anyone ever managed to hollow a piece at all. A case for style over matter. 'Bet there is much to be said for the contrary too.

 

Just a thought.

[dante lopez]

bravo,I find this challenge exciting, I make my mind on the design is a frog in some bamboos ,and in the back is a snake trying to eat the frog tomorrow post some pictures hope to heard all the opinions of any kind,directions and advices are welcome thanks

[dante lopez]

hi here are the pictures of the progress of the ryusa please comment and directions

[Sandy Seton-Browne]

This all makes me feel rather anxious.

 

The following comments should be considered as outlines of ideas and not as dogmatic statements.

 

Critique is good but is also somethig that you seek and therefore are prepared for. How else can you know what is 'art' according to the people who decide these things such as teachers critics etc ( Flash to the Impressionists first critique)

 

In my work with adolescents it is clear that if you want to get your message across (or in analysis - if you bekieve in Freud - timing is all and the right time is when it is tactful to do so) you have to put the message in the right way at the right time to the right person, and it is offered in a non directive way, if it is wrong in any of these ways then the message will not be heard and often the opposite message eill be taken.

 

Some of this discussion seems to be about the differences between shopping at Marks and Spencer - functional and not that inspired or getting a designer outfit that is dramatic but not much use for wearing on the school run. both are dresses or whatever and some prefer one but not the other and vice versa.

 

I am sure that the japanese do things their way and have a great admiration for their art/thought etc but am not japanese nor could I ever be I am western white male middl aged middle class middle of the road etc etc and what works in one culture/setting does not always work in others (there are tribes in the pacific who worship Prince Philip as a god while most(many/some) of us in the UK see him as the queens slightly batty husband and usually good to upset some group or other by his lack of tact and political correctness.

 

The biggest problem seems to be that communication is a two way procees what we said is not necessarily what is heard or indeed what we meant to say or language being language might have several meanings. And where people are using languages that are not their own confusion arises, there are enough phrases in English and American that have opposite meanings to confuse any one!!!

 

There are enough problems communicating face to face when the 80% of the meaning that comes from body language tone of voice etc etc is present so it is not surprising that things go awry when blank text with personally chosen emoticons - which mean different things to different people - are used.

 

The jade piece that is being created looks as though it is going to be great - no doubt it could always be 'better' technically and might not say exactly what the artist is trying to say, but that is what drives us on to create something 'better' each time we pick up a tool. It is why I feel inspired by the work displayed here rather than just giving up in disgust at my own incompetence

 

To be very silly about it it almost feels that a discussion about beautifully carved fly buttons being 'usable' when everyone uses zips is taking it all a bit too seriously???? But that would be me confusing content with form!!!

 

But also not the case as art is about limits and challenging the viewer?? or am I being pretentious here??? (yep I thought so...)

 

If a netsuke must be functional then surely it is letting the person with the money who buys it to wear determining what is art????

 

Or is art what I say it is and your art is wrong because it is not my art??

 

I will now retire to my very primitve (as yet) ( but already improving by being in contact with you lot) bone carving stuff.

 

\sandy tryihg to look innocent and not cause offense

[Izzy]

I find that sometimes, I produce a very nice piece, not because somebody told me what to do, but because nobody told me not to do something some way. Sometimes all it takes is your willingness to try and to learn from that process. In the end, you will have carved something you call Riusha, and that's exactly what it will be. The definition of a word is defined by the person using it.

 

Your piece looks to be coming along nicely. I can't wait to see it finished. What kind of tools are you using?

[dante lopez]

hi ,yes is coming allong nice ,but I am taking my time jajajajafirst I use a regular diamond tools to emty the inside ,but for the out side e dentist tools it helps very good maybe in this year the piece it will be don ,lets see thanks

[Thomas M.]

Hi,

 

Any news on this netsuke? Would really like to see the outcome!

[Dennis Hoshield]

Wow Natasha .... that carving is gorgeous!

 

I read through the posts a couple times, but I did not see it ... what is this netsuke carved from?

I know nothing of all the Chinese (I assume) terms for these wonderful carving styles.... but I believe I must be like Dante and try it! I assume there are traditional materials .. ivory, woods, bone, antler, etc?

 

The purpose of a netsuke is to attach to chord that would be tucked under a shash, that is wrapped around the wearer's robe ... to hang a personal bag (early form of 'fanny pack') for holding personal items.... Is this close? Would weight be an advantage, to counter-balance the weight of the bag ... or just add unnecessary weight?

 

After I get some of my current trachten projects done, I must try this carving. I have not really done any carving, with an 'inside'.

 

Since I have seen photos here of all kinds of carvings I haven't been exposed to before, it seems there may be some such thing as 'decorative' netsuke, vs functional netsuke ... and perhaps sometimes the 'line' between one and another can become blurred.

 

I commend Dante on attempting to carve such a potentially intricate 3D project in Jade! How does jade do, with heat? I see it is often cut while being wetted, with cutting wheels. Would attempting to do such an open design, be prone to easy breakage during carving, if there is to much heat buildup?

 

Dennis