Clark Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hi. I've just come back to carving after many years. I am starting work on some small netsuke type carvings in boxwood and also trying to finish an older carving in ebony. I wondered if anyone has recommendations for the type of finishing sandpapers and polishing compounds that they use to take a piece of carving through from final carving and scraping to a final finish ready for polishing? I'm also curious about the final polishing stages. Does anyone have recommendations about what polishing compounds or techniques they use to put a really smooth finish on boxwood/ebony? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 i have never worked with box wood but try slow working up from say 120grit to 1000 then may be coating it in a fine sealing wax or wood wax then polish with neaploe hope that helps i only do bone sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Twilbeck Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I have used norton sand paper up to 400 grit and have used white polishing compound with a buffing wheel, Used both on ebony and boxwood,, Most of the time I finish my carvings only with carbuna wax, If I plan on coloring or stain i will clean the wood with paint thinner or something to remove any thing left from the use of the polishing compound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I scrape/carve the smooth surfaces as I carve. I try to bring the surface to its finish surface this way, with very sharp scrapers. Scraping with the grain is best when possible, but with extremely dense boxwood or ebony, multidirectional scraping might be possible. The wood will let you know what works. If I am going to use sanding, or if I have to use sanding, I still try to scrape as much to the degree that is possible. It is so much easier to create a scratch free surface this way. The most recent carving, when I had to knock an edge off, I may have used a touch of 600 glued to the end of a tooth pick. Mostly I did not sand at all. Generally, if I have to sand boxwood, I will begin with 400 grit, having done most of the surface prep with scraping. If I want a polished smooth shine, then advance to 600, 1000, 1500, 2000. I could then move on to micromesh, but that is usually for really dense hardwoods that will gleam with polishing. With ebony, the very dense and hardest sorts, scraping will bring the surface to near the finished point. Then the 400, to 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, and through the micromesh cloths I have, 3600, 4000, 6000, 8000, 12000 (I think that is the progression. The 2400 and 3200 sometimes add scratches so I avoid them (It might the the particular production, dunno). At this point, the wood gleams. A bit of finish, a modest application of a hardening oil finish perhaps and then later Renassaince Wax when the oil has cured for some days. Sanding removes material, and if it is on an area of detail, it may obliterate detail. Scraping is such an integral part of carving small, it behooves carvers to learn how to do it when using hard, dense woods and animal materials. The great variety of sharp tool shapes one can make provide so much more control than an unweildy piece of sandpaper. And with the paper, one must sand, resand with a finer grade, and finer again until the surface is acheived. Scraping brings you to that point so much of the time, and the results are so much more under control. Examples of three different kinds of ebony and one boxwood piece. The last ebony piece was the most dense and took a beautiful hand polish with a touch of hardening oil and Ren. Wax. The first one, could you imagine trying to sand all of those elements that make up the look of decayed wood? Scraping with a variety of very sharp, differently shaped tools did the work. Then perhaps the micro cloths for the gleam. This boxwood piece was mostly scraped, and was not a candidate for high polish. Sometimes it is not a good result to make a piece shiney. It all depends on the subject and the wood. Some woods will not take a polish, and some will. Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted March 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thank you for your advice and thank you Janel for such a comprehensive overview and for visual examples of both types of wood used in carvings. I will draw a lot of really useful information from that. I knew that you preferred scraping to sanding or buff wheel finishing but it is extremely useful to get this kind of detail. As I am in the UK, some of the types of sanding materials you have access to in the US may be different but I'll search around on the net to find them. I was curious about a few of the oils that you use. Could you tell me what a 'hardening oil' is. I've used Ren Wax in the past and need to buy some more. It was always recommended for wood finishing but I find it a bit difficult to get out of fine grooves and undercuts. Thanks Tony for the info on Neaploe (something i've never heard of) for bone finishing. This is something I will be using soon so I will look it up. if this is posted elsewhere on the site I will check out what's been written. Also I have never heard of 'micromesh' for final finishing. Could you tell me more about this material Janel? I am quite good at making tools and have a stock of round section silver steel and many old leather working bodkins to convert into scraping tools. I would appreciate an insight into some of the shapes that you use for scraping. If you have a link to anywhere on this site I'll check this out. I will look into the site in more depth to find out about staining and colouring boxwood so thanks for the info Ed. Again thank you all for taking the time to answer my question, it has really helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Hi Clark, I still am not convinced of any one product being the "best" or "right" one(s) to use. I always prepare a sample piece from the same wood source, smoothed and textured similarly as the completed piece. I use wet/dry sandpaper up to 2000 grit. Automotive shops have it, and some hardware stores as well. The micromesh might be the wrong descriptive term, it was late at night and I was searching for a simple word. Basiclly, this is an emery type cloth but with what seems to be a rubbery medium that the grit is embedded in. They are washable, I believe, so are reuseable and somewhat renewable. Ah-ha! Found it at Rockler.com : Micro-mesh from 1500 to 12000. As I search and test various ways to finish and enhance the wood that I carve, I have tried, and forgotten many things. What I am using now is not necessarily what netsuke carvers use, there are many varied experiences and opinions out there. I am not only a netsuke carver: I also create small sculptural pieces and use a lathe to prepare forms for carving. What I am looking for is a way to protect and enhance the beauty of the wood as well as the carved surface. I prefer the finish to not change over time, as in an oil that would eventually dry out and in my opinion, need reapplication. I also do not want a 'gunky' coating to obliterate the detail and textures. When possible, I wish to have a luscious, tactile result that does not feel like plastic, where you can imagine that you are still feeling the wood instead of the finish. Currently I am testing how the three following types of products work for the various transitional pieces I am working on with carving and lathe work. - Minwax Wood-Sheen (color: natural) oil based. There is a water-based version, but I don't remember how that worked; I like the oil penetration before the hardening. This rubs on, and dries/hardens in a couple of minutes. I apply it, then with fingers and/or cloth and/or brush will wipe/remove the excess while also rubbing and raising a polish. Removal of the excess in all recesses and details is important to do before the product hardens. I am careful to be sure that no buildup is left in the details. I let this application cure for a few days, until it does not smell of the oils or thinning medium. The finish that this provides alone is not completely strong against moisture and is also not as strong against scratches. Neither of these are really huge concerns sometimes, but then again in some instances they are. After this application, I choose to do one of two things: - Where extreme gloss is of concern, and the potential for abrasion is present, (as when I have a piece(s) on a glossy platform where items will be moved around on the surface), I will use an oil & urethane topcoat to make a harder finish. This I have used on its own or wiped on and buffed off repeatedly to build up a very thin extra layer, sort of like doing a French Polish technique, but with the oil/urethane. After this process has cured for some days, I will apply a very thin layer of Renaissance Wax, one or more times. I am careful to be sure that no buildup of either product is left in the details. Example on my web site of Dragonfly Floating. The platform needed this kind of protection. The boxwood floating elements were finished differently. - The other choice after Wood-Sheen oil is to apply Renaissance Wax once or twice, in very thin applications, and then buffed wtih a soft brush (jewellers natural, long bristle, or an old-fashioned shoe polish brush). Sometimes a soft toothbrush will help with crevices, but used gently with a light touch. Adding RW will bring more of an overall shine to the work. The Wood-Sheen alone might allow shine variation between recesses and high spots as you bring luster to the surfaces with rubbing with a soft cloth. I do have to make a conscious decision from piece to piece about the gloss factor when considering RW after Wood Sheen. With turned pieces, I have been exploring the use of another variety of oil finish. Variations of Tung oil based sealer/finish. A couple of versions take much longer to cure, and sometimes I do not have the luxury of waiting when show deadlines approach. The products seem to take a long time for the 'smell' of the thinning medium to work its way out, and also the product itself might ooze at the end grain if it was too generously applied to some woods. - Sam Maloof Poly/Oil Finsih is one variety. It takes a while to cure, and I apply it one or more times over a series of days, wiping down well each time and for some time afterwards. It does not have a glossy finish. Eventually rubbing with a cloth will bring a good glow to it. Sometimes Renaissance Wax is used when the piece no longer smells of the product. This and the next one are not my first choice, but sometimes does nicely for certain pieces. - General Finishes: Seal-A-Cell, is A similar but different product to the Sam Maloof Poly/Oil Finish. Both take time to cure, and needs wiping several times after application. Currently, I am in the midst of the first exploration with using Mark Strom's recommendation for using a thin shellac base-coat before applying oil paint enhancement to my carving. That will be written about later when I see this process through to completion. About my own work, there seems to be no, single, way to approach the finishing of any piece. I sometimes yearn to be doing simpler work when a piece gets more and more complicated, yet I enjoy doing the complex carvings as I watch the details appear from a lump of wood. Finishing is very nerve wracking, almost every time! Testing on a separate piece of the same wood source takes time, but it is absolutely essential. Use the SEARCH to see what you can learn about tools from the Archives. I need to get to the studio before the day evaporates. There are many contributions to read, and somewhere there is a link from one toolmaking topic to an article on another forum. Tool talk will have to come later, sorry. In the mean time, I hope that you will find some starting points from past topics. Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted March 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks again Janel and thanks for taking the time to respond yet again so fully. I have found the Micro-Mesh online here in the UK and I've ordered some in a variety of the grades you suggest to try out. I'll check the links you suggest and do some experiments with the finishing oils. You've been a great help and I'll post images of the finished work as soon as they're complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 What I do is not the only way to go about finishing the small boxwood carvings. I just want to restate that. It is good to know about various approaches, and to be able to try them and choose what suits the individual pieces. There are so many choices! Have fun with it, and I hope to hear back from you over time as you figure out what works or not for your pieces. Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 While I was working today, I realized that I described earlier the broad range of grits that I use, but I may have not mentioned that generally with boxwood I use the wet/dry sand paper up to 600 most of the time, but sometimes a quick final pass with 1000. It depends on if the finish will have some gloss or a light stain. You have to figure out what works for what you are doing. Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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