Elisa Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Thank you Dan for this information. Thomas, this is a grate idea... Do you know if and how much I would pay for some of these pieces of steel? around 6 mm diameter and 10 cm long would be fine. In the mean time I will ask in our tool and machine shops which kind is the steel they sell in bars. Cheers, Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 W1 steel is inexpensive here,6 mm dia.rod is about $13 for 5 meters.Most local suppliers sell it in 1 meter lengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Hi Elisa, Have a try a both steels and see what's the best for you. The most important is to find what suits your need. For the guy in France, he has more than he will ever use in his life. As far as I understood, he will send you for free. You can check with him directly, if interested, please send me your mail address via PM and I'll tell him to get in touch with you.Or if you prefer to stay anonymous (which is understandable ), I'll give you his mail and let you contact him. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 W1 is a "simple steel" it can be heat treated with the gas burner of a kitchen stove or a plumber's torch. HSS is sold already heat treated,but the temper can be destroyed during the grinding process and it cannot be heat treated with "house hold" measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi Dan, I use the gas bottle with welding torch to quench steel. The same I use for annealing and soldering. I would like to try this W1 as well, just to draw a comparision between the different materials. I'll find out if in Italy it is sold with an other name and which one. Could be that it is just the common steel which is sold in our tool shops. Thanks, Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted July 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hi Thomas, some days ago I've sent you my email address via PM, have you received it? Cheers, Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Hi Elisa, Sorry for the late answer. I gave your address to the guy I told you about. Did he come back to you? Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Hi Elisa and all, It has been some time since I have visited the forum and was thrilled to see this topic pop up here. I have been studying and now teaching the process of Nunome Zogan to willing students. I will gladly post whatever I can to help this discussion. Elisa, I believe I saw a listing for a workshop you are teaching in this process. I hope we might be able to share information to further the interest in this process. Did you learn from Satsuo Ando? I am currently reasearching a writting about a workshop taught by Ando during the late 1970s at the Univesity of California at Fullerton. There is a video of Ando on Youtube and can post the link if you have not seen it. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Komokin in Japan can supply tagane blanks in both the softer grade steel and hardened HSS. The softer blanks are tipped with red paint and the HSS with blue. Tevel Herbstman of Allcraft in New York has some of the red tipped tagane for sale along with hammers and other traditional Japanese tools. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 One of my students posted images and comments on the workshop that I last taught. I believe the most difficult is teaching how to shape and sharpen the tagane. http://lynetteandrea...-damascene.html She posted some examples from my personal collection of historic japanese work. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Hello Fred, Are you telling us that all the pictures from the blog you've linked here are made using nunome zougan technic?? That's amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Elisa, I have used O1 & H1 steel stock to make the chisel used for Nunome Zogan as well as a mystery steel stock. All preformed well on iron base. All tools require periodic sharpening and I use a hard arkansas stone. I have heard others who use the new diamond honing strips to sharpen their tools. I have not used them yet though I may since I have ordered the blue tipped tagane blanks from Komokin in Japan. I am told that those are HSS and need to be stoned to shape and are not intended to be filed. When Ando taught at the University of California at Fullerton in the late 70's the notes taken by the students and the blanks they used were mostly red tipped and these were flame hardened after shaping. I will be very interested in what Mr. Ando has to say in response to your questions. Thomas, The most of the images in the link are made with the Nunome Zogan technique. Lynnette also took pictures of some married metals examples in my collection. The works done by the Komai family shop were some of the best I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. I am fortunate to have a few examples of their work. I know that I do not have enough years in my life to master the process and still would like to use this technique in my work. Thanks again Elisa for posting this topic, Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Thomas, sorry me for this long delay!! I came back just two days ago from my holidays. I was in one of my favorite areas in Italy, the Aosta valley, my father was born there. So I'm a little bit sad to be already back but it's nice to see your messages here About your friend, he did!! I don't know if he already have send me the steel but he asked me for the address. I'll let you know as soon I have the steel and how it is to work with it. Fred, I'm very happy about your excitement about this topic. I hope so that interesting discussions will come out. Thank you for your intention to share what you know. First of all I have to tell you that I havn't learned from Satsuo Ando but from Noboru Ando. Hope this is not to disappointing for you. Sorry, It's my mistake: I'm so used to call him Ando that I missed to specify the full name. Noboru Ando is a teacher at the Hiko Mizuno college of Jewelry in Tokyo. He is a excellent teacher, very careful to each student. He pays much attention to details, like how to hold a tool, how to clean the metal surface, how to treat the pitch and so on.. He is a very kind person and fortunately I kept kontact with him, sometimes I can ask him thinks, I feel very lucky for this. Even if mostly I have to be patient and wait a while since I get an answer. For Nunome Zougan, Noboru Ando let us use the blue tipped blanks of Komokin (or other companies). Now I'm sure that those are HSS blanks. You are right, that's what I learned too: we used the grinding stone to give the first rawest shape to the point of the blank and after only stone, no file. We used the red tipped blanks only to make some tagane for Uchi-dashi (japanese repousse), those chisels had to be quenched after shaping. All the best, Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Thank you Fred for the pictures from your collection, very beautiful pieces. Especially the two boxes with bamboo representations and the first box with houses and Mount Fuji in the back. I love also the box with the quite geometrical pattern (10th photo from above), do you think the metals are copper, silver, shibuichi and shakudo? And is this the patchwork inlay named Hagiawase zougan in Japan? I would love to learn the relief inlay technique (Niku zougan). I will look for opportunities to learn it in Japan. If my finances and the time allows me to go I will surely do it. If somebody knows about courses in Europe or in the States it's interesting for me too. In Japan I have seen objects of a special beauty decorated with this technique. Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Please Ford, if you can send me the link for the video of Satsuo Ando, I think I havn't seen it! You told that you ordered the blue tagane blanks directly from Komokin in Japan right? How? Did you order the tools just through their Japanese web site? This is very interesting for me, until now I asked japanese friends to send me the tools but I can't ask them every time for this kind favour. Ordering directly from komokin would be the solution! You told also about Allcraft in New York but I couldn't find any web site to check their selection -I'm mostly interested in the HSS blanks and the tipical hammer, used also for uchi-dashi, named Otafku. I attached an image below- If Tevel Herbstman of Allcraft sells those tools may be the shop can make shippings over seas as well... Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Wow, Thomas! what a coincidence, the steel arrived today. He did send me 14 of those amazing pieces!! I can't wait to shape and to try them. Any way I have to wait a couple of weeks, until then some other things have the priority. I'll tell you know when I have done some. Thank you for having arranged that for me! I will give a feedback to Fabien immediately.. Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Elisa, Here is the link to the Ando video. This is the man who taught my teacher. I use these steps for the Uchidashi in my work. I blend a bit of Western and Japanesese techniques in my work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Elisa, Tevel has yet to get up a website. This is his mailing address and phone number. Allcraft Jewelry Supply Co 135 W 29th St # 205 New York, NY 10001 (212) 279-7077 Allcraft has several sizes of the hammer and tagane blanks. None of the blue tipped ones yet. He is asking me to advise him what he should order to have on hand. I will have to email him and make requests. Komokin has been sending what they think will sell. I ordered from them over 10 years ago and I had an English copy of their catalog. I believe they now spell their name with a C and no longer a K. I mailed the order and also called them and spoke to an English speaking representative. They were very accomodating and sent quickly. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Here is a the link to Comokin website with the hammers. http://translate.goo...kae_cW7yD5JdZ1w and tagane http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.comokin.co.jp/shopbrand/004/X/&usg=ALkJrhgYdt5Kv8AfiarRi7a8S3DVHmzLHw I have seen clearer images of their printed catalog and do not recall where. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Hi Fred, thank you for your help. Today I wrote an email to the address of Comokin, thanks for sending me the links. If I find a way to comunicate with them and they will send me the tools it would be perfect. Otherways I can aks my mother to look for the tools at Allcraft, she will be in NY around the 15th of September. At least for the hammers... The video is very interesting. Best, Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hi Elisa, Did you find time to test the steel? Cheers, thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisa Posted October 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi Thomas, sorry I didn't log in since more than a month. Yes I tryed it. I damaged the first two shaping them on the fast grinding wheel, and even putting the cisel every second in cold water the top changed color and it was ruined. After I did it only with the grinding wheel wich goes with water, it's much slower but the result is perfect. I did some larger pointed and some smaller pointed ones, those steel blanks are very helpful. At the same time I got also some tagane blanks from komokin (Japan) and finished them the same way. I'm very soddisfacted actually, it's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for asking me and for connecting me with that guy. All the best, Elisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I would love to see a discussion about the different chisels used in nunome zogan. I have always used a chisel just like the one Elisa is using and at a slight angle to the base metal. Cross hatching in three directions. Each successive direction using slightly lighter blows. I know that there is a more delicate method in which chisel with more acute angles is used and the chisel is held perpendicular to the base metal. I believe a lighter blow is required to make the cuts in the metal. I would love to hear folks opinions on this. I would also like to hear about the thickness of metal used and gauge of wire used. It would be nice to share the steps used and tools used to push the metal in and methods used to burnish it and finally to color the base metals. This could be a valuable resource for those interested. I will gladly share whatever I know and discover. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred E. Zweig Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Elisa, Your nunome zogan workshop is occuring soon. Please take pictures and post them for us to view. I suspect what you have to offer will be well received. Best of luck! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Hi Elisa, Glad to read that you've managed to work this out. As Fred is saying, pictures of your workshop may be very nice. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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