Alex R. Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Well, with Stephen Myers Book, I tried to make some gravers for bone carving [definitely should have come here first, this tutorial is much better ---> ."]http://www.thecarvin..._dowel+graver]. Anyways, I don't think my gravers came out to well (see pics) and now I'm wondering if I should just scrap these and start over? Or, if someone more skilled in tool making could clue me in on how I can make these better? Also, I've read on around the forum about different tool making techniques, but I haven't come across any discussion on something along the lines of the "do's and dont's of tool making" (maybe there isn't any? or maybe depends on what your carving/ how you are carving?) Well, I hope to suck up some knowledge here. Cheers, Alex R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kelso Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Alex, if you grind off everything in front of and above the black line in this photo, I think you'll have a graver of sorts. It will need a slight belly curve on the bottom as well. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Hi Alex, Jim and I have different experience and uses for tools. Your calling the tool a graver I think is why Jim suggests changing the tool that much, to look more like a graver than a scraping tool. Jim is an engraver. I, well, I use scraping tools a great deal (but I don't think that I am called a scraper ). I like Jim's suggestion if the tool that you made is to be used as a graver. To me, you have made the shape of what could be a very useful scraping tool. It is definitely in great need of using a series of whet stones to refine and sharpen it. I have recently made several tools, three faced with three cutting/scraping edges, in the spirit of the Stephen Myhre's tools. I thought at first that I did not succeed in making the favorite shapes of a couple of tools, but with use, they have each become useful for their own characteristics, with greater or lesser angles, and arcs or straight edges. I did not expect to be posting tool photos tonight or I would have prepared by taking good photos of the tools. These are from a quick shot of tools before they were shipped to a distant location where I taught a workshop recently. I will add more to this topic in a while. It is past midnight, and I would like to locate some information. Janel PS Please read the photo prep guidelines found at the top of each forum area. Your images are way too large in dimension and file size. It would be helpful to aim for the guidelines if possible. To get closer in to the subject in the photo, you can crop the background away from the frame, and then the subject will be larger in the lower dimension size. when you resize the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Are you making tools for engraving or scraping? Such tools work differently, but can also work a little alike also. My tools mostly scrape and also cut in a certain fashion. There is a little video in the Getting Started and Resources http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/index.php?/topic/939-small-carving-instructional-videos/ that was made several years ago, showing the tools that I had then in action on a small sample piece. I won't outline tool making tonight, but could you describe how you got the tool to that shape? Will you be hardening and tempering it? What metal are you using? I will try to add more tomorrow. Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 i dont use gravers i only use bur bits and a dremel or pendent drill i find that a lot more easy than graver but its a matter choice all the best and hope to see some of your work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Seton-Browne Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 If you sand the tips using fine grade wet and dry on a sheet of glass you will get a smooth flat surface with sharp edges this should then work as a scraper/graver as the shape is the same as those i have made and use and also bought from The Bone Studio in NZ http://www.carving.co.nz I don't know if he still makes tools to order but he did until fairly recently and are great for bone carving and also seem to work on boxwood and ebony Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 This grouping shows variations of three sided tools that differ in degrees of angles and widths. I have found that the differences between thick and thin relate to work that is either more aggressive or more delicate, and some for just scraping and others for both scraping and cutting. My mind thinks ahead to what will need to be done, and knowing the tools, how they feel and what they do, I have a sense of what to reach for to do the work. Sort of like a painter reaching for a brush that might be broad or narrow, soft or stiff, straight, pointed, angled or curved. Each one does a range of things and each one does some things better than others. I took photos of the old and new, and often reached for tools on my bench. There are a couple of other styles of tools also, but I will not take time to post them today. From this grouping there are some that are not used much, but still are finding a place in my work. The photos show the tools on their sides and from the top (or bottom), in other words, from the third face that makes each tool at least a three in one tool. I have closer in shots that will be part of the future topic. Two sides of the three are formed at similar but opposite planes, the third affects the other two planes and determines whether the cutting/scraping edges are curved or straight. The opposing planes usually start flat, but over time, with repeated stropping and occasional trips to the whet stones, some planes become curved. Having so many tools works for me, though there are a few that get lots of work depending on the piece that I am working on, and where in the process from start to finish the tools are needed. The largest tools usually are first used, the smaller ones on the right are detail oriented. Some of the tools are equilateral triangles, all edges curved and the same. I like the idea of the wet/dry sanding papers on a truly flat surface, in lieu of whet stones. Thank you for mentioning it. What ever works when you need it and will fit into the budget. I use both water stones for the creating and overhauling of tools, and on the bench for quick touch ups I use diamond "cards" of coarse, fine and extra fine. There is also a leather strop with a fine black powder on it, probably silicon carbide, but not sure about it. (I have not located the bottle that the powder came from. It was put on the strop decades ago and the bottle has not been seen for years.) An easy alternative for stropping at the bench is to use a rectangle from cardboard box, such as a cracker or cereal box, with honing compound on it. I picked up a stick of green stuff at the big box hardware etc., store. Rub it onto the unprinted side of the cardboard, then touch up your tools on that when you sense a bit of skip or dullness that does not need an overhaul to bring back the best cutting edge. A few strokes on that sometimes makes a good difference in how the tools perform. Next month I might have time to post more about my tool making process, but not this week, sorry. Now, on with the day. Departure tomorrow morning for the next show. Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex R. Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Hey ya'll, thanks for all the input! I was gone for the last few days on little rock climbing venture and have been doing a good deal of pre-dental study, so haven't checked in for a bit. Maybe to clear up some details about..... -the gravers/ scraper (...?). Honestly, I dont believe I know which one I'm trying to make fully? I was taught by a carver in Golden Bay, NZ who goes by Chris Bone. Maybe some of you have heard of him (he claims infamy and is a great guy)? Anyways, he always called his tools gravers, which were fashioned after those in Stephen Myhre's (Mr Bone gave me his signed copy), so that is how I know them as. I'm assuming gravers cut differently than scrapers? Which one do you think is more suited for bone carving? -how I made these tools. Well, I started out with some old drill bits. I figured that the metal, although not the best, would have enough integrity to exist as a graver. With drill bit tips in hand I headed to the bench grinder and slowly tried to copy some shapes in Stephen Myhre's book (I can't seem to remember which ones now because they never ended-up looking too much like his tools). After I felt like I got an ok shape, I was to sharpening stone. Its a fairly old sharpening stone, and I'm not quite sure of the grade of the girt. However, it does have fine and large grit side. I use lin seed oil as lubricant when sharpening. With sharpening to what i thought was sharp, I was left with what you see in my first post. Maybe a better sharpening tool is need? or some technique in using the grinder? -harden and tempering. I have no idea? What does each accomplish for a tool? Is it a difficult process? Will it help if I did it to my tools? -Also, I like the idea of using no powered tools for my carving. Although, it might take longer, I like watching my pieces slowly transform into something unique I hadn't originally thought of, which I feel is more conducive with hand carving everything. Will this ideal be able to obtained with just hand tools? Thoughts? -Still curious about some terms: "fine grade wet and dry on a sheet of glass," "series of whet stones," "wet/dry sanding papers on a truly flat surface," "water stones," "diamond 'cards' of coarse, fine and extra fine," and others. Maybe an image will help? Loved seeing the picture of all your styles of tools Janel. Thank again Ya'll Cheers, Alex R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Hi Alex, I wish that I was not departing for my nine hour drive. I am already 15 minutes after ideal departure time. I don't like leaving you hanging. Hardware store will have wet/dry sand paper up to about 400 grit (grit is the abrasive that is stuck to the paper). Auto body repair area of auto parts shops might have up to 2000 grit which is very fine. If you are using high speed drill bits, you will not need to harden and temper them. I cannot say that they will serve as well as tools made from tool steel that is hardened and tempered after shaping of the tool. Others may have more to say about that. The sheet of glass, or truly flat surface such as a section of laminated countertop that is actually truly flat in all directions, provides a reliable flat surface which translates to a better chance at a flat surface when shaping and honing your tools. Old stones wear unevenly, and are a disaster when trying to make a good flat surface on your tools. They can be fixed, but I won't go into it here. Series of whet stones, from coarse grit to medium to fine and super fine grit, allowing for rough shaping, refining, and putting a polish on the metal. Water stones vs oil stones. The lubricant is one of choice but is determined by which kind of stone you have acquired. Use the internet to learn about whet stones, water vs oil. Diamond cards, well, they are playing card sized, convenient for carrying in a pocket. The diamond grit is embedded in the metal surface, and needs a bit of moisture for lubricating when using. The internet will also provide information about diamond honing options. Hardening and tempering, used for finishing soft tool steel. Soft at first for shaping easily, then heated to harden then heated to temper. This is one aspect of what I propose for a future topic, though if you use the right keywords here on the forum, there might already be useful information for your needs. There are substantial archives from many knowledgeable artists here on the forum. Start using the SEARCH function found at the upper right of the page. Gravers are for engraving metal, push cut technique. Scrapers are a sideways motion tool. Look for the video that I made a while ago down in the Getting Started and Resources section. That shows how I use small scrapers (several years ago with more limited tools). I need to get going. Do some reading. You are on a good track trying to figure out the Myhre style tools. I have found the concept to be very versatile for my work needs. I have two of his tools, which I am very fond of and love to use. Best wishes to you, Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Anderson Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Alex, A graver is used for cutting lines into metal like copper and steel. They have uses in other materials. Flat's are most useful but V tools are almost as important. Scrapers are used to clean up the surfaces you carve in metal, wood ivory, etc. They come in all shapes and styles. Even after Graver and Scraper have the basic shape it's important they are very, very sharp. That's the hard part. Drill bits work well but you must remember that the shank isn't heat treated like the tip. It's left soft so the drill chuck can grip it better and to avoid breakage. Heat treating is easy but reading only takes you so far. You must practice but better yet find a carver/engraver/machinist that will give you a hand. Youtube maybe? The creating process with the tools is a wonderful carving task in itself. I'm a guy that likes a "basic" approach. My primary tools for deep relief engraving (carving.....) are a Flat Graver, narrow V graver and two different scrapers. If you look at my past post you'll see my palette of tools. You have a great attitude. Give yourself the time to learn the nuances of the craft and you'll do fine. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex R. Posted August 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 So after reading ya'll's posts and doing a little more research of my own (I really liked your tutorial on how to use your scraping tools Janel) I believe i was able to solve my scraper problems. And John your definitely right! Drill bit metal is super soft. I discovered this out last night when I started tinkering around with the scrapers I made and retooling their shape. It wasn't their shape that was preventing me from cutting the bone well. It was their inability to hold an edge. It was a real "ah haa" moment when I made my first cut with my newly sharpened tool and its cutting edge folded over on itself (it was pretty funny moment actually). With this eye opening event, I then began a search for some more comprable scraper making metal. I read some posts saying that chain saw files provided tempered steel that would be adequate for making scrapers. So, I hit the hardware store and got one. I think I'll try making a scraper today and see how it goes. I am hopeful though because just last night I grinded a bit off the file's end just to see what it was like grinding ( it made an edge of sorts). And without even sharpening this pseudo scraper, I tried making a cut in some bone and I ended up laughing out loud, it cut better than sharpend drill bit scrapers. And about that sharpening, I just ordered a set of 3 DMT diamond cards: coarse, fine, and extra fine. They were inexpenisve and I've heard good things about them. The sharpening stone I have just wasn't "cutting it" (pun intended!) So, we'll see how the sharpening goes with my new scrapers. Thanks again for ya'll's input! I'll let ya'll know know how it goes. I think now, I need to work on my grinding technique. It is really hard to keep the metal in the exact position and continue grinding the same face flat. I'm assuming it comes with practice or maybe the uneven faces are worked out during the honing process? Well, probably will do some more research on the grinding phase of tool making. Tips and tricks will be much appreciated Cheers, Alex R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Anderson Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Alex, Even when I start with hardened steel I anneal to shape the tool. By annealing I don't have to worry about overheating when grinding and better yet I can use a file to shape the tool. The file allows me to cut precise angles quickly. I then take a propane torch and bit of water or oil and use them to harden and temper the tool. It's speeds up the process when you make lots of tools. Give it a try with tool made out of the drill bit shank or even a shank you haven't ground. You can even try it with a piece of the file you bought. You can find more detailed instructions on the net and other post on this forum. Anneal - soften the steel - heat to cherry red and cool slowly (you can then file the tool to shape) harden - heat to cherry red and quench in water or steel temper - takes a bit of hardness out so the tool isn't brittle - polish bright and heat to a straw or slight blue color and quench You can test your work with a file. It it skates it's to hard. Barely cuts is just right. To soft and it cuts easier. I hope that helps. I can still remember when Janel and some other on this forum steered me to scrapers to help finish my work. Thanks All. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Seton-Browne Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 i thnink the more important thing is if they do what you want them to do! If they take of curly shavings they are probably fine! Sharpening often is better with a bit of glass - to keep things flat - and fine grit wet/dry paper. Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 I have just updated my web site and added a page with more tool photos: http://www.janeljacobson.com/toolsstudio/tools2012.html Janel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.